Form 172 NOL

[The_AntiTax_Man]

@AlJr  Yes, there are always impatient clients.  If the client gives you everything that you need to complete their return you certainly want to accommodate them.  And the stack of nearly completed returns gets higher on the corner of your desk each day.  So, you can visually see what has been left undone.  And you would like to provide your client with a finished product and get paid so that you can pay your bills.  You are rightfully upset that your software company has let you down again.    

I've been waiting for Intuit to provide a ProSeries 1040 NOL carryforward worksheet for years now.  No communication back if they are working on something or not.  Now, at long last there is a glimmer of hope that maybe, just maybe, it will happen this year.   

[CookGorrell]

Farm returns are due to the IRS on 3/1/2025 - 3/6/2025 will make every return late and subject to penalties.  

[a-zbookkeeping]

According to the IRS Released Form, Form 172 was Finalized & Released on 01/16/2025!!! I Don't understand the Intuit Delay till 03/06/2025

[BobKamman]

Have you ever run a software company?  It's not an easy form to program (speaking as someone who used to program my own TRS-80 to do tax returns, in the good old days).  And IRS hasn't been too obvious about announcing that it's a new requirement.  Is the delay caused by Intuit, the worst tax software company in the world except for all the others, or by IRS, where "reeling" is their middle name.

[Gregory Gandrud]

It is simply untrue that if there is an NOL carryforward that there is no current year refund. Please think again about your logic here.

[BobKamman]

That comment is appended to something I posted yesterday, but it's directed at something Terry53029 said about refunds on NOL returns three weeks ago.  

[BobKamman]

@Terry53029  I think what you meant long ago was "there is no balance due."  But consider the Schedule C or Schedule F filer with a $100,000 current-year profit and a $200,000 NOL carryover.  Income tax due: zero.  But SE tax due:  about $15,000.  

[taxiowa]

Get real Bob.  If you had a $200K NOL in 2023 it had to be because of your Sch c or Sch F loss.  You can not have that big of loss on wages, rental properties or investment.  That means you owed no tax in 2023.  which also means you owe no penalty on this years filing.  As long as paid by 4/15.

Most on this thread are just worried they are not going to get paid as soon as normal  Take out bank loan until they get paid is all that I can tell them.  But avoiding penalty for not getting return in is not applicable.  I would love someone to prove me wrong that they had farm income last year and a NOL?  And therefore have to file by 3/03.

[BobKamman]

Get real.  You sound like someone who has always had cash-management problems with a tax business and is trying to project that on someone else.  What's really going on here is that preparers in farm country would like to get those returns out of the way by March 1 so they can focus on non-farm returns for the last six weeks of tax season.  I think special treatment for farmers is an archaic privilege that should be repealed, or extended to everyone who doesn't know their income until some of the December K-1s are received or transactions are recorded.  But as long as the farm lobby has 5% of the vote, nothing will happen.  Just look at the uproar over Trump and Musk freezing the farm welfare payments (while denying it's happening).

What I wrote is that someone could have a $200K NOL from 2023, then a $100K profit in 2024.  Do you agree they are required to use Form 172?  And they're still going to have a balance due from SE tax, right?  And I thought Terry53029 meant “balance due” instead of refund. But maybe Terry doesn’t do joint returns, when one spouse has a job with tax withheld on wages; or returns for farmers who also hold W-2 jobs between harvest and planting. (My Kamman ancestors from southern Indiana used to work part of the year in the Louisville packing plants to help their cash flow.)  Of course for the March 1 benefit to be claimed, most of the gross has to come from farming, right? So there’s that.  

[taxiowa]

My point is I can't envision a single instance where they are required to file by 3/03.  I agree they may owe SE income on this year but they are not due until 4/15 because they owed nothing last year.  Most on this thread must not budget well and need to get money coming in.  They don't necessarily say it.  But it implied. But in reality most if not all of the farmers with big NOL this year or last do not need to file until April 15th.

I agree they have to use form 172, but they DON'T have to file until 4/15.  So tell all these tax men and women to get off Intuit's butt. The form is fine whenever it comes out. 

And any balance due from SE tax is not due until 4/15 also.  Form 172 will eventually come out.  Again others are afraid they are not going to get paid on timely manner.

And I not sure what you mean I have cash management problems.  I love you Bob but that statement is just weird.

[BobKamman]

Then you can't envision someone who paid $15K in SE tax in 2023, and wants to file a farm return with maybe that much SE tax again in 2024 by March 3.  

"I agree they may owe SE income on this year but they are not due until 4/15 because they owed nothing last year."

Why can't you envision them paying SE tax last year, also?

[taxiowa]

Because they had to have NOL last year.  And it had to be because of farm loss or Sch C loss.  So they did not owe SE tax in 2023 if they had NOL from farm or active business.

[BobKamman]

I once had a client with a million-dollar NOL who was using it up about $50K per year.  I didn't say that the NOL from 2023 was created in 2023.  It could be from 2020, or earlier.  Profit in 2023,  no income tax in 2023, SE tax in 2023.  Getting real enough for you now?  

[taxiowa]

Possible scenerio but slim chance but I will give you that one.  Iowa farmers usually don't have NOL, especially over multiple years.  Check your pork chops, porterhouse, egg or corn flake prices to see why.

But I do agree with you that it is real possible.

[BobKamman]

I might have been an Iowa farmer myself if my mother hadn't left Sioux City for the Big City on the lake.  But it hasn't been that long since Iowa farmers were losing billions because of Covid.  I found this from 2020:

An Iowa State University center in a new report estimates that the COVID-19 pandemic will cost Iowa’s largest agricultural industries at least $6.3 billion per year.

Here’s a breakdown of the projected annual losses by the Center for Agricultural and Rural Development:

— Ethanol: $2.5 billion

— Hogs: $2.1 billion

— Corn: $788 million

— Fed cattle: $658 million

— Soybeans: $213 million

— Calves and feeder cattle: $34 million

https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2020/04/15/report-covid-damage-to-iowa-ag-will-be-in-billions/ 

[DTNY07]

Sorry, posted my reply directly to you rather than the original topic

[DTNY07]

Had my first one of these.  I agree with those who are questioning why was it available for Lacerte on 2/6, but Pro Series has to wait until 3/6?

[mvts]

I'm officially furious. ProSeries genuinely owes me for hours of explaining to elderly clients why "I" can't get their taxes done (filed). Ludicrous. And no help whatsoever from ProSeries.

[taxman1]

3/20/25 is the new form release date !!!!  WTH !!!  

[Merc]

Wow, now the PS availability page shows this form will be ready 3-20-25.  Are you kidding me??  This is beyond ridiculous when other companies have had their form done for a time now.   

Admin, isn't it time to comment here as to what the problem is??? 

[mcrawford2020]

Now it is showing Form 172 to not be available until after 3/20?  Is this correct??? 

Seems absurd that returns cannot be filed after the 20th of March!!!

Also, I noticed that Lacerte has had the final form since February 20th...so the excuse of waiting on a final form from the IRS is a no-go!

[mvts]

How much will you all be losing because Proseries refuses to get themselves together? I'm likely losing 3 elderly clients over this which is easily worth three times the amount I paid for Proseries software. Potential class action for lost income? March 20th is absurd. I'm liable to lose more than those 3. People can and will go to someone who has Lucerte, etc. They just want their taxes to be done. This is ridiculous and such a slap in the face as a customer of over 30 years.

[taoseno]

Bottom line is Intuit don't care about us customers.........

[taxiowa]

Ok, i will bite.  How do these elderly clients have a NOL?

[BobKamman]

---

@taxiowa wrote:

Ok, i will bite.  How do these elderly clients have a NOL?

---

I think we agreed that they can be concerned about filing by March 3 because they still owed SE tax for 2023 and have to match their payment for 2024.  So when are these geezers going to retire?  

[taxiowa]

And I was in agreement with you Bob, that you were correct.  But how does the fee charged to these three elderly people equal to more than what was paid for Proseries?   

[BobKamman]

@taxiowa   I'm not too worried about that because people who shout "potential class action" at the first hint of injury have obviously forgotten they agreed that any disputes must go to arbitration.  

[Accomacktax1]

form 172   it was to be ready on 03/06/25 now it says 03/20/25   I have people waiting for the form like 7 clients this form was approved back in December 2024  
What's the deal  I have people waiting they cant file until form is finalized is it Pro Series???

or should we wait till April ridiculous!!!!!! it should be simple  Get this form ready Pro Series please!!!!

[mvts]

No one shouted, Bob. Are you injured in some way?

[leonardtom]

When is form 172 going to be ready!

[dbtaxsolutions]

You will all be very very disappointed beyond belief that today March 6th, form is not ready and it says March 20. Horrible. Come on Pro series, you can do better than this. I now have to hold clients file for 2 months? that's outrageous. Get with it please. Your software is so costly, these form items should be a priority on your list! Thanks

[Becky1]

Form 172 NOL was said to be ready for E-file 3/6/25 and I'm still showing errors in my software saying its not able to be submitted. Does Intuit have an updated date for it to be ready??

[Just-Lisa-Now-]

Please bookmark this site so you can keep track of forms finalization dates.

https://form-status.app.intuit.com/tax-forms-availability/formsavailability?product=PROSERIES&bu=PRO...

[The_AntiTax_Man]

I like the way that you are thinking @Just-Lisa-Now- , but I doubt that the 172 NOL complaints will subside until the Form 172 becomes active in PS24. 

Folks:  This Forum is at the bottom of Intuit communications.  This Forum is useful only for the tax forms in PS24 that are currently working [maybe broken] and you need some help.  For the tax forms that are essential and are currently totally missing, you may want to send your request in an email to Intuit CEO Sasan K Goodarzi. He is at the top.  Google him.  

[MarBor]

Form 172 re NOL  is not yet finalaized in Proseries as of March 6, 2025. What is going on? 

The form is available on the IRS website. Is there a work around for this? a client is waiting to receive a large refund and I can not file the returns with error

[IRonMaN]

Prepare the 172 manually from the IRS website and then attach it as a pdf.  When converting the file for e-filing, turn off the error checking feature.

[Cheryl3]

It is now March 6, and now it shows Mar 20 as the "ready" date.  What's up???

[IRonMaN]

"What's up???"

Egg prices?

Intuit has stayed silent on this issue so I'm not really sure why folks keep popping in here hoping for some kind of divine intervention that will have the form ready today.

[djmac]

The IRS finalized form 172 on January 31, 2025, as well as the instructions. Both are available at the IRS website. Not sure why ProSeries is not up to speed on this yet.

[BobKamman]

When there are two threads going on the same subject, complainers should check both for useful information.  This was posted two weeks ago, elsewhere:

lori3

Level 3

2 weeks ago

I just received an email from the IRS notifications.  It appears as though it's not an Intuit issue; it's due to the electronic system of the IRS.  Their MeF Schema and ATS Schedule Update notification says the IRS doesn't have their end of the electronic filing for Form 172 ready and that it is not scheduled now until March 9, 2025.

The ATS date for the following new forms has been updated:

Form Family	ATS	Production
Form 7211-Legislative	3/9/2025	March 2025
Form 172	3/9/2025	March 2025

[BobKamman]

I just received an email from the IRS notifications.  It appears as though it's not an Intuit issue; it's due to the electronic system of the IRS.  Their MeF Schema and ATS Schedule Update notification says the IRS doesn't have their end of the electronic filing for Form 172 ready and that it is not scheduled now until March 9, 2025.

The ATS date for the following new forms has been updated:

Form Family	ATS	Production
Form 7211-Legislative	3/9/2025	March 2025
Form 172	3/9/2025	March 2025

[PWeller]

And now it won't be ready til 3/20?      This is absurd!

[Julie Wilson]

Form 172 was finalized by the IRS on January 31. Pro Series was supposed to finalize this form on 3-6 and is now saying 3-20. Asking a client to wait 7 weeks to file their return is unacceptable.  If Pro Series doesn't provide good service, then we can't either.  When the cost of your service outweighs the benefit, it's time to look for a new provider.

[IRonMaN]

If only there was some way to file the return now, instead of waiting.  Funny that nobody has figured out a way to do it. 🤔

[KKCPA2]

Today it is March 7 and the form still isn't finalized, and I can't file a client's return on which there's a sizable refund.  Need an update ASAP 

[IRonMaN]

If only there was some way to get that return filed now.

[BobKamman]

@IRonMaN You don't understand, this is a place where people come to complain, not to find solutions.  You and others have posted the workaround to this problem many times.  That's not what people are looking for.  Makes you wonder who the real losers are.  The clients with NOL's, or their preparers?

@KKCPA2 , @PWeller , and others can now take offense.  That's another reason people come here.  

As you noted, most recently yesterday, 

"Prepare the 172 manually from the IRS website and then attach it as a pdf.  When converting the file for e-filing, turn off the error checking feature."

[BobKamman]

And the crybabies don't understand that being available for paper filing is not the same as being available for e-filing.  I have my doubts about whether Lacerte actually has had the form available since February 28, as others claim -- we haven't heard from any Lacerte users.  But the people who complain about how much they pay for ProSeries or ProConnect, and then wonder why Lacerte has a feature that those don't:  If they don't have bread, let them eat cake.  

[taxman1]

Be nice !!!  

[IRonMaN]

This is about as nice as Bob gets. 😀

For the record, it gets frustrating for some of us that provide help on a regular basis here.  Often times answers are provided in post strings but folks often don't read the full content of a string.  They will pop out of the woodwork with "I'm having the same issue" based on the post header or simply just post to complain even though the problem is either solved or a work around has been provided. So the best advice I can give to anybody visiting this place ----------------- please actually read all of the information provided before posting.

[mvts]

Neat, and thanks for the info, Bob. Some of us are not chronically online, so we aren't necessarily aware of every thread that exists on a subject. Perhaps you could be assistive without the snark. Just a thought.