What would be a fair rate
If someone files MFJ
2 dependents (child care and 1098t)
4 rental properties
1 sold rental property
3 W2s
1099-R early distribution
In Manhattan, New York, or Manhattan, Kansas?
I sense that a client is complaining about your fee. An ethics professor once quoted a sole practitioner he asked about how he determined fees. The answer was, "charge three times what it's worth and if the client complains, cut the bill in half."
There is the "charge by the form" school, and the "charge by the time" school. I am in the second category. Depending on how well organized the client's documents are, this looks like two to three hours of work. Well, except for that guy in Ohio, who could do it in 20 minutes. A Ford dealer will charge you $200 or more for maintenance and repair on your F-150. You're worth at least that much.
what do you mean by fair? to you or the client? two very different things I guess based on you asking the question. I agree it sounds like the client is balking. How do you normally bill? if it was only 1 rental what would your fee be? then multiply it by the amount of work to do 4 plus the sale of the rental.
I'm in NYC and know what my fee would be for this return. If client doesn't like the fee, then they are welcome to find someone who would do it for less. If they are a long time client, I might be willing to "adjust" a little. Bill for your time and experience - don't shortchange yourself for the amount of time this would or could take you.
I have a mantra: no matter what I charge, the client will find someone who charges LESS and someone who charges MORE.
You say $200, they know someone for $150. You say $350, someone else charges $400.
I charged by time for my employees and myself, with rates from $75 an hour up to $300. If the fee I quoted, let's say $300, is higher than the accumulated time charges we spent, then the extra dollars are like a premium for my experience. We were efficient in our time.
Preparer one hour at $75 an hour plus Reviewer half hour at $100 an hour plus My half hour at $300 an hour equals $275. So $300 is efficient. If the charges came to $325 but fee was $300, I lose efficiency unless I can upcharge for additional services.
Many years ago I tried out PS's charge per form, and the amounts were quite similar to my time charges. Add more for Sch C, Sch D, Sch E, 4797, etc.
ps I don't pay them $75 or $100 an hour, more likely $18-34 an hour, so I don't earn $300. I earn $300 less $18 less $17 equals $265 for my half hour of work. $530 an hour! It's called leveraging.
The Swiss Army Knife for tax preparers is Tax Tools. One of it's nifty little tools is a Tax Fee Schedule calculator that uses IRS numbers for what a newbie grunt might spend in time to Read, Understand and Follow all of the rules and regulations to do the return correctly (Some of you may have watched Old Yankee Workshop.) Here are a few number for this return:
Form Record Keeping Learning Prep/Assembly
1040 2:46 3:58 6:51
E 3:00 1:13 2:01
4797 35:23 8:20 9:17
So for the 4 rentals the total would be 87 hours and 52 minutes - How much should that cost this rather sophisticate taxpayer?
You might also take into account your fee based on what does it cost you for overhead, supplies, software, education, and time spent with this couple.
@ljr Well said, including about the rental properties. Approximately 99% of taxpayers do not know how to properly complete Schedule E rental property, including the depreciation. The 1% that does know are current or former tax accountants.
Is this a new client? One thing to look at is how organized they are.
If they come in and hand you a W-10 for daycare, a printout of the financial account from the college, an itemized list of expenses for each separate rental along with an accurate depreciation schedule, a log of hours performed and vehicle mileage for the rentals, the purchase and selling paperwork of the sold rental and an explanation of why they withdrew their retirement early, it could be a fairly easy return.
On the flip side, if you need to inform them of a huge list of things that you need, repeatedly ask them a million questions, figure out prior depreciation, correct prior depreciation with Form 3115, etc., it could be a very time consuming and expensive tax return.
The fair rate is the value of your services. What is the value of your services?
Similar discussion 2 years ago. I'm going to wait and think real hard and come up with a great answer when this comes up again in 2026.
Income/Firm transparency - Intuit Accountants Community
My guess is that 1/4 of that 99% think they can prepare a Schedule E. This - for me - is a reminder to get better at communicating my value to clients and communicating why I need to be the one to prepare their tax returns.
This was a story from a CPE seminar years ago.
Dad calls up ophthalmologist with an emergency. His son got a splinter in the eye. Doctor has the child come in immediately. Very skillfully he removes the splinter. Hands the dad a bill for $1,000. Dad freaks out. Says it took you all of two minutes. How can the bill be $1,000? Doctor replied, you did not pay me for my time. You paid me for my knowledge and skill to remove the splinter so your son wouldn't lose an eye.
Another story - if you needed a heart operation. Doctor one charges $2,000 and doctor two charges $20,000. My guess is you would go with doctor two due to the perception they are a better doctor.
Same with accounting fees and tax prep fees. Time is only the starting point. With time the more inefficient you are, the more money you make. What is the value of the service you provided? And then look at the math and see what your overhead costs are, how many returns, what you need to earn to stay in business. It's not boilerplate fees. It's a process and it's what the market will bear.
I have a client - one that's well trained after many years - with 25 rentals, in six different states.
His return can be keypunched directly from the organizer due to the training I've given him.
His bill is less than it would be for a client that wasn't organized.
I've been know to actually add a line item to the invoice for disorganized clients; most of 'em have moved on as it's not behavior I tolerate. And those that haven't pay a premium for me puttin' up with them.
As others have said, you have to bill what it's 'worth', and only you can determine what that is in your community.
If you are new to this profession, I'll offer a word of advice. Don't start with low fees to attract clients - you will regret it.
@abctax55 👍many of us have many clients that are not well organized and that's just the way they are. Nature versus nurture, and in their case it is nature. Heidi is more organized than some of them.
@IRonMaN Heidi is in that program. Her real name is Adelheid. A gang of pitbulls tried to attack Heidi and her pack. But Heidi wasn't having any of it. Now she has to be in that program.
I've always felt that way about Pitties, too. Until recently when I've gotten to know a 13 y/old one, about 55 pounds. She's a sweetheart - the only Pit Bull I've ever been comfortable petting. I will 'never' own one tho. I suspect they can sense my apprehension.
@abctax55 Well said and I agree with you. I'm sure there are some pitbulls out there that are great dogs because they have responsible owners and were brought up right. But unfortunately there were some that were abused and mistreated by cruel clowns. People who abuse dogs are no good.
My first grandpuppy was a lovely pit bull that wanted to be a lap dog. Like my of that generation of my "descendants", like all but one of this set from 2013 have gone onto redder fire hydrants.
Happily the grandpuppie's person still have the same wonderful smile!
@George4Tacks 👍👍👍Beautiful picture. The dog by the Christmas Tree, with the red outfit on that is part German Shepherd, looks like Heidi, who is also mixed, her mother being half Border Collie. In terms of longevity, health, etc, mixed breeds on average live longer and are less prone to get genetic diseases/illnesses. They should have mixed breeds on the dog shows, but the creme de la cremors will not have it. 🐕🐕🐕☝☝☝
We cynics have a special place in our hearts for dogs. There are many anecdotes about the original Cynic, Diogenes (you can look it up) that refer to his dog-like behavior and his praise of a dog's virtues. It is not known whether Diogenes was insulted with the epithet "doggish" and made a virtue of it, or whether he first took up the dog theme himself. When asked why he was called a dog he replied, "I fawn on those who give me anything, I yelp at those who refuse, and I set my teeth in rascals."
One explanation offered in ancient times for why the Cynics were called dogs was that Diogenes’ mentor Antisthenes taught in the Cynosarges gymnasium at Athens. The word Cynosarges means the place of the white dog. Later Cynics also sought to turn the word to their advantage, as a later commentator explained:
There are four reasons why the Cynics are so named. First because of the indifference of their way of life, for they make a cult of indifference and, like dogs, eat and make love in public, go barefoot, and sleep in tubs and at crossroads. The second reason is that the dog is a shameless animal, and they make a cult of shamelessness, not as being beneath modesty, but as superior to it. The third reason is that the dog is a good guard, and they guard the tenets of their philosophy. The fourth reason is that the dog is a discriminating animal which can distinguish between its friends and enemies. So do they recognize as friends those who are suited to philosophy, and receive them kindly, while those unfitted they drive away, like dogs, by barking at them.
(Yes, this is the Diogenes who was known for carrying around a lantern in daylight, “looking for an honest man.”)
Anyone want a puppy? My friends in Kyiv have seven to give away. They tried to keep the mother inside but she got out at the wrong time. That’s just how dogs are. Photo from last week:
@BobKamman 👍Thanks for that information Bob, it was great, and it got me searching for my old Praeger Encyclopedia of Ancient Greek Civilization, and I found it: "Cynicism: The philosophical school was founded by the Athenian, Antisthenes, a pupil of Socrates, in the gymnasium of the Cynosarges (the agile dog), whence the name of Dogs or Cynics for the followers of the school.....Antisthenes' successor, Diogenes of Sinope, was famous for his witticisms.... when Alexander the Great asked him whether he requested any favour, Diogenes' only reply was to ask him to move out of his light." The ancient Greeks were simply brilliant, but I have to disagree with them when they say that dogs are shameless. Maybe at that time they were, since they may not have fully evolved since domestication, but anyone that has a dog now knows that they do have shame. 🐕🐕🐕☝
Since this seems to have become the dog column, rather that the tax prep column, I will mention that DNA on your best friend is now available through Ancestry and many more. My latest Grandpuppy is Cooper who was found dirty and cut on the City streets about 2 years ago. Here is a link to his DNA at Wisdom Panel . You can browse on that link to see more about my daughter's declining super dog kennel. The Santa jacket dog (Clyde, brother of Bonnie who went to another home) in the earlier photo is now 16 and the sole doggie survivor of the photo.
@George4Tacks 👍Cooper looks like a good-hearted dog and very smart. Thanks for that information and the link. I think I'm going to sign up for that Ancestry DNA test for the boss. My hunch is she is 75% German Shepherd and 25% Border Collie, but there could also be something else there.
Looking at Coopers ancestry, it looks like his family stuck to breeds close to the same size. But I am curious how drunk that one family member was that ended up fooling around with that Golden Retriever.
I used Embark (embarkvet.com) to find out what Juno is. And opted for the extra genetic testing given the myriad of health issues Vonnie, and Tara both had. Easy to do, and they put effort into trying to find 'relatives' of your pet. In fact, 2 years after rescuing Juno we were contacted via Embark messaging & determined Juno's brother lives about 50 miles from us. We plan on getting them together next month for a birthday party.
@abctax55 that is great. I guarantee you when the two dogs meet each other they will recognize each other. Heidi cries when she sees her parents, and the former owners, even though she was 6 weeks old when I got her. I think dogs are smarter than many people.🐕🐕🐕☝☝☝
@PATAX wrote:
I think dogs are smarter than many people.🐕🐕🐕☝☝☝
All you need to do is read the TurboTax question forum and then you will KNOW that dogs are smarter than many people. 🤣
@abctax55 wrote:
I used Embark (embarkvet.com) to find out what Juno is. And opted for the extra genetic testing given the myriad of health issues Vonnie, and Tara both had.
That is really cool. I didn't realize there was such a thing. I guess it makes sense, but I hadn't thought about it before.
Bill, Juno came from a Lab rescue group (she was 5 years old) and
1) We were really curious as to what she was mixed with - as her legs are so, so long.
2) John is impossible to buy gifts for, so this seemed like a good idea
3) The genetic testing part was intriguing given what we had gone thru with the to prior pups medically.
Remember... a LAB rescue group:
She's 50% purebred German Shepard Dog (mom), 17 % lab (had to be a black one !, 17% German Shorthair Pointer, 16% Springer Spaniel. Her picture is my avatar.
The lady that contacted us via Embark has Juno's brother; her assistant owned the mom - the purebred GSW. She gave me pictures of 'mom' nursing the nine puppies who were all pitch black with bits of white toes & chests. It sure can be a small, small world.
@abctax55 wrote:
a LAB rescue group ... 17 % lab
Did you know a lab is the most dangerous dog? If you get too close to their backside you could be beaten to death from the excessive tail-wagging. 🤣 (Just kidding).
That is super cool. And as you said, such as small world that you were able to make contact with Juno's family.
I have friend that had fostered a mama-dog and her litter of puppies. The mama completely looked like a black lab, but oddly the puppies varied tremendously. One puppy looked like a black lab (like mama), a couple looked like golden labs or more like golden retrievers, one was completely white and the fifth looked exactly like a Siberian Husky. Due to the variety, we were even wondering if there was more than one 'father'.
If the tail doesn't get ya', the tongue/puppy kisses will <w>
A litter 'can' have more than one father; someone told me that decades ago & I didn't believe it until I looked it up.
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