8915-F Workaround?

[msmith7305]

Instead of waiting for 3/31 release from PS how about:

1. Fill out 8915-F on IRS forms website

2. Save as PDF

3. Fill out 1099-R Worksheet with same payer information as original distribution

4. Enter result obtained on 8915-F as both gross and taxable

5. Attach PDF to return

6. E-File return

Seems to be a better way than putting clients off until after March 31. Anyone see an issue with this?

[garman22]

I prefer to wait for the 8915-F but I wouldn't begrudge someone doing it that way. 

Most of my spreads owe so, they dont care if they have to wait. 

[qbteachmt]

I wouldn't bother with step 3. You don't have a 1099-R. You don't need a worksheet. You have a known addition to taxable income on the 1040.

[TaxGuyBill]

Here is another good option:

https://www.drakesoftware.com/products/buy-or-renew-drake/

[jeffmcpa2010]

Some one needs to give this a try and see if the return gets accepted.

[TaxGuyBill]

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@jeffmcpa2010 wrote:

Some one needs to give this a try and see if the return gets accepted.

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It seems likely the e-file would be "accepted".

But in my opinion, it seems extremely likely the taxpayer will receive an IRS notice about it.

[Frustrated-in-IL]

Seriously?  It is $5000 LESS and the forms are there?  I know I said I only have a few years until I retire and don't want to learn a new software but that is some serious savings.

[Just-Lisa-Now-]

Nobody will look at an attachment.

If the IRS computers are looking for that 8915F to be included on 2021, and you send it as a generic attachment, you'll be hung up in error processing for who knows how long.

[TaxGuyBill]

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@Frustrated-in-IL wrote:

Seriously?  It is $5000 LESS and the forms are there?  I know I said I only have a few years until I retire and don't want to learn a new software but that is some serious savings.

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Yep, Drake and TaxSlayer have had it for about THREE WEEKS.  Yet ProSeries says they won't have it for 5 more weeks.

Why does it take Intuit 8 weeks longer to produce it?  EIGHT WEEKS. 

[IRonMaN]

That is easy to answer.  Intuit got the memo that tax season wasn't starting until March this year.  So really, having a form not done until the end of March isn't all that late 😜

[rbynaker]

Drake just attaches it as a PDF attachment.  It's an extra step (click a button) in the calc/view process.  I suspect the efile will tell the IRS that an 8915-F is attached so that may ward off any nastigrams, but basically it's just dumping income straight onto the pension line(s) of the 1040 and attaching a PDF that no human will ever look at.

If I had any farmers who needed to file by 3/1, I would grab the generic PDF from the IRS website, fill it out, save it and attach it to the ProSeries return.  You'd have to fudge some data entry to get income onto the pension lines (depends on whether it's an IRA or a non-IRA as to which box it goes in).

I suspect many folks with this 1/3 spread will have a balance due (since they suddenly have a chunk of income with no withholding) so no rush . . . except for the farmers who need to file and pay by 3/1.

Rick

[TaxGuyBill]

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@rbynaker wrote:

Drake just attaches it as a PDF attachment.  It's an extra step (click a button) in the calc/view process.  I suspect the efile will tell the IRS that an 8915-F is attached so that may ward off any nastigrams, but basically it's just dumping income straight onto the pension line(s) of the 1040 and attaching a PDF that no human will ever look at.

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I think that is true for all software this year (IRS didn't set it up as a 'real' e-fileable form this year).

But why would it take Intuit EIGHT WEEKS longer than Drake to add this to the program?  EIGHT WEEKS longer (not to mention that I think Drake had the draft form before that).

[msmith7305]

The 1099-R Worksheet is the only way I know to get the result from the 8915-F on either line 4b or 5b of the 1040 as required by the instructions.

[msmith7305]

I'm not sure about that. I have attached PDFs to returns for years and have never had a single problem or question from the IRS.

[TaxGuyBill]

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@msmith7305 wrote:

I'm not sure about that. I have attached PDFs to returns for years and have never had a single problem or question from the IRS.

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But this is a required form that has numbers that flow to the 1040, and the will be specifically looking for the amount on the tax return.  I suspect that is very different than most other PDFs that are attached.

[msmith7305]

I have attached numerous numbered forms before. As you know, PS does not provide all of the IRS forms (or State forms for that matter) and what do you do if one is required but PS does not provide it?

In fact, I believe Intuit is advising those who want to use Form 7203 to attach it as a PDF or mail the return.

[msmith7305]

There is no need to fudge anything to get the result on the correct line (4b or 5b). Just use the 1099-R worksheet as stated in my original post.

[TaxGuyBill]

Maybe you are right, but I would still be worried it could get jammed up on the crazy IRS system.

In my opinion, there is no problem with 7203 because that is strictly informational with no calculation and nothing going to the 1040.

[rbynaker]

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@msmith7305 wrote:

There is no need to fudge anything to get the result on the correct line (4b or 5b). Just use the 1099-R worksheet as stated in my original post.

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That IS the fudge.  1099-R worksheets DO get transmitted with the return (just like the W-2 worksheets).  It's part of the ERO responsibility.  That's where you may run into a matching problem.  There is no 1099-R if the amount is just flowing from the 8915-F.  Now you're telling the IRS (as part of the efile) that you have a 1099-R when you don't.

[rbynaker]

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@TaxGuyBill wrote:

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I think that is true for all software this year (IRS didn't set it up as a 'real' e-fileable form this year).

But why would it take Intuit EIGHT WEEKS longer than Drake to add this to the program?  EIGHT WEEKS longer (not to mention that I think Drake had the draft form before that).

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I suspect you're right about all of them being attachments.  Intuit's position is fairly indefensible at this point.  At best they could argue that the final instructions weren't released until 2/15 but now we're nearly two weeks beyond that point.  Practically every other tax software did their programming based on the draft forms that were released last year and just marked it as "not ready for efile".  Then when the form went final they just had to make sure nothing changed and turn off the "not ready" status.  For whatever reason, the ProSeries developers did not take this approach.

I have to place at least some of the blame on the IRS.  I think having a "forever" form for disaster distributions is a great idea but I think implementing it in the middle of a pandemic when the agency is unable to answer the phone or open the mail for 9 months is idiotic.

[rcooley25]

If the form 8915F is not ready on 3/31/22 that is what I am planning on doing and let the chips fall where they may.

[qbteachmt]

I've posted this previously, but it doesn't hurt to repost it. There is no schema for include Form 8915-F for Efile tax year 2021. The IRS never made one. That's why it is either a data stream (simulating the form schema) or a pdf attachment. Here is what I see per IRS, gathered from three IRS resources:

MeF will accept Form 8915-F as PDF only. 

As of 12/8/2021.

For the Known Issues & Solutions file, this is what the IRS provides dated 12/9/2021:

Schema will be developed for Tax year 2022/Processing Year 2023

MeF will accept a 'GeneralDependencyMedium' that includes all the information requested on Form 8915-F for tax year 2021 if the software developer cannot attach a PDF. "Form8915F" must be used for the element name 'Desc'  when including Form 8915-F as a 'GeneralDependencyMedium'.

Form 8915-F, Qualified Disaster Retirement Plan Distributions and Repayments, will be accepted in MeF as a PDF attachment for tax year 2021.  “Form8915F” must be used as the binary attachment description when including Form 8915-F as a PDF attachment.

Here is the required filename and extension:

Form8915F.pdf

Here is the required Description:

Form 8915-F (must be the beginning of the Description)

This is all in tables (boxes) because it is copied directly from IRS Excel listings.

Hope that helps.

[msmith7305]

Sounds like my solution in the original post will work.

[TaxGuyBill]

The problem that I see is that if you fill out a 1099-R worksheet, the 1099-R is sent with the e-file.  So how does the IRS know that 1099-R is a 'fake' 1099-R?  It seems to me that they will think that is a separate retirement distribution.

[rcooley25]

It could confuse the little darlings which is why if I take that route there will be a letter drafted ad ready to mail to them when they start questioning what we have done. But lets hope it does not come to that and as upset as I am I am willing at this point to wait untill March 31st. But as I said in another post if Intuit does not come forward with 8915F as they have promised then I know what I have to do and let the chips fall where they may.

[IRonMaN]

My nerves of steel have turned to rust so I wouldn’t go that alternate route unless it was April 15th and I was desperate.  Trying to beat the system now could end up beating you up later on - to me it isn’t worth the potential aggravation.

[rcooley25]

Thank you for your response and concern. I have too many clients who need that form and besides what if  it is not ready by April 15th and we file an extension and possibly have to wait untill Oct 15th. The aggrivation that would cause if I take an alternative method is nothing compared to the aggrivation I am currently going thru.

[garman22]

The handful I've had so far have owed so......there is no issue. Most of mine that chose the spread, chose with fairly large amounts so....they are not in a rush. I can understand if you have clients who have refunds and have to wait for this form. 

I truly believe Intuit will have it sooner vs later. They have to, right? They'd look pretty ridiculous if they are the only ones who dont. They couldn't really claim "leaders of the tax industry", can they? Then they'd be no better than Pharma w/ Oxy. <-------I know, bit overdramatic. 🤣

[rcooley25]

Ihope you are right nd I am wrong. This would be a joy to be proven wrong on this one.

[IRonMaN]

I posted previously that I believed the form would be ready prior to March 31st and I am so confident of that, I am willing to bet $10,000 of Garman's hard earned dollars on the line to bet that it will be there. 

As a side note, I do believe that it would be too big of an embarrassment for Intuit to miss that date -------- I'm sure they will push as many bodies into that area as they need to make sure that form gets developed as promised.

[rcooley25]

As I have said on a earlier reply to someone else I sure hope you right.

As far as Intuit being embarassed by not having it ready by March 31st. them not having it at this date(2/28/22) when so many other softwares have it up and running does not seem to bother them one bit.

[garman22]

wait....whaaaaaaaaaa?????????

[Just-Lisa-Now-]

The instructions for it are still in draft, until those get finalized, PS wont finalize the form...they should still give us the form to work with, even if we cant Efile it yet!

[IRonMaN]

"wait....whaaaaaaaaaa?????????"

Don't go getting cold feet on me now😀

[TaxGuyBill]

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@Just-Lisa-Now- wrote:

The instructions for it are still in draft,

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No, they have been out for over 2 weeks.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8915f.pdf

[SuzieQ1]

How about this...... using the original 1099R to report 1/3 of the distribution- file electronically.  

By the time the IRS asks for the form (even if attached as a pdf when filed), ProSeries will have it, right? 

[rcooley25]

I am prepared to do that if that form is not ready on March 31st and as I have said before let the chips fall where they may.

[kabbabkkg]

Put the original amount or just the third on the 1099 R

[rcooley25]

I agree with your statement. That s the only way this year that the 1/3 amount will be transfered over to line 5b as instructed on form 8915F. Buit I wouild sujest you use code 2 (early withdrawl exception applies) to keep from computing an early withdrawl penalty.

[Just-Lisa-Now-]

Resurrecting this thread!    That stupid meaningless form 8915F is holding up returns again this year, keep pushing the date out further.

[SuzieQ1]

The date has gone from 2/9 to 2/16 and now 2/23. 

I wonder if we will be strung along for another month. 

[Just-Lisa-Now-]

Ive used this workaround on my daughter's return each year, no reason her refund should be held up for who knows how long waiting on this stupid form that only has 3 of the same figures on it. 

I got the 8915F  from IRS and filled it out and attached as a PDF, then added this final years installment as a regular distribution.

[garman22]

@IntuitGabi @Intuitjhaze 

They keep pushing off for just a few numbers? I have a great programmer for you guys if you need new talent?

[Just-Lisa-Now-]

I think its because it incorporates new disasters for 2022, they all feed to this new 8915F....thats why it takes so long to get it full functioning.

[TaxGuyBill]

We all know that Intuit doesn't program the software according to tax law; they program it according to the Publications and Instructions. 

The Instructions for Form 8915-F were just revised or finalized on February 11th, and it typically takes Intuit about 2.5-3 weeks to program something. 

[garman22]

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@TaxGuyBill wrote:

We all know that Intuit doesn't program the software according to tax law; they program it according to the Publications and Instructions. 

The Instructions for Form 8915-F were just revised or finalized on February 11th, and it typically takes Intuit about 2.5-3 weeks to program something. 

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I was not aware. Ok, I retract my statement re: programmers. 

[abctax55]

Since @Just-Lisa-Now-  resurrected this thread (thanks...) 

A quick question IF anyone knows off-hand - can this election be made on a delinquent 2020 return? 

OR, an an amended return?

I didn't have a single client who did this in 2020, NOW I have a long lost client that has re-appeared.

TIA - I'll do my own research (Pub 17 anyone 😉 if no one knows the answer off the top of your head.

[qbteachmt]

There is some verbiage about the return being "timely filed." That should be easy to find.

[TaxGuyBill]

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@abctax55 wrote:

Since @Just-Lisa-Now-  resurrected this thread (thanks...) 

A quick question IF anyone knows off-hand - can this election be made on a delinquent 2020 return? 

OR, an an amended return?

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The "election" is to have it all taxed in the year of the distribution.  Is that what you want to do?  The default (no election) is to spread it out over 3 years.

If you do want the election to have it taxed all in one year ... I don't know.  If I remember correctly, I couldn't find anything directly in §2202 of the CARES Act.  However, sometimes there are peripheral rules that state restrictions in a different code section or regulations.

EDIT:  But I'm sure it's in Publication 17.  🤣

[TaxGuyBill]

Okay, you got me curious, so I looked it up.  😂

IRS Notice 2020-50:

This election cannot be made or changed after the timely filing of the individual’s federal income tax return (including extensions) for the year of the distribution.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-20-50.pdf#page=13