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calling the IRS for someone who passed away - no POA (my mother is the one who passed)

DTNY07
Level 7

I've never had anyone ask me in the 20 years I have been preparing taxes, so figured I would ask here

My mother passed away on August 6 last year.  Her tax return still hasn't been processed.  I filed it a week before she passed.  My father passed 10 years ago, so it was a single filer.

I don't have an IRS POA for her.  I do have a general POA and a medical one, but I don't think the general POA covers it.  

I know returns were taking much longer to process last year.  But hers was a fairly simple one. So unless it is taking longer because she passed less than a week after I filed, I don't know what the hold up is.

Is this something where if I call they will just help me.  Or do i file a POA, sign for her as her POA and include a death certificate.   or should I just call, explain the situation and see what they ask for.

I would probably wait until 6 months from the file date (so another 4 weeks) before I do anything.  But, figured I would ask now 

Thanks for any help

 

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dkh
Level 15

If you are the Third Party Designee on the return why wouldn't you be allowed to call without a POA ?  That's how I would start then if necessary you could send the general POA, etc..

 

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28 Comments 28
dkh
Level 15

If you are the Third Party Designee on the return why wouldn't you be allowed to call without a POA ?  That's how I would start then if necessary you could send the general POA, etc..

 

DTNY07
Level 7

Yes, I am the Third Party Designee.  Haven't called for anyone in at least ten years where I didn't have a POA.  But, what you are saying makes sense.  Thanks for the info.  

dkh
Level 15

You're welcome.   I frequently call using TPD as my authorization to talk about client's refund status.

DTNY07
Level 7

Makes sense.  I just usually go to where's my refund to see if there's a reason for the holdup for someone with a fairly basic return (like them owing student loans, child support, back taxes, etc).  As returns were taking much longer this past year, had many more clients than normal asking me about refunds.  I don't normally call about a refund.  Have enough issues (normally with corporate clients) that i call about, where I don't want to call about a refund.  

dkh
Level 15

I will only call if it's been an exceptionally long time since the return was efiled (which has taken on a whole new meaning since the pandemic hit) or if the refund was different than the return and the client swears no letter was sent to them.   

DTNY07
Level 7

Off topic.  But what I hate is when someone like the NYS Dept of Labor calls me or mails me for a corporate client.  They have my info from when I registered the company with the DOL (whether I file the payroll tax returns or they have a payroll company, I usually register them).  But then they won't speak to me without a POA.  I've said to them why are you calling me/ mailing me then if i don't have POA.  Doesn't happen that often, but when  it does................

DTNY07
Level 7

Yeah, the I never received the first notice.   Here's the second notice saying I owe..........because of some document I forgot to give you..........The mail has sucked during the pandemic, at least with my post office in Brooklyn, NY, so it's happened more than normal.  Though of course, I have clients receiving notices where tax agencies are wrong also. Much more often the past 5 years then the first 15 I was doing this 

dkh
Level 15

I've often wondered why a POA is necessary when calling about a balance due......who in their right mind would call IRS or the state to have someone's balance due adjusted other than the preparer or client.  Not how identity thieves make money. 

 

BobKamman
Level 15

POA expires when the principal dies.  How do you know the return has not been processed -- is a refund expected?  

I client who filed in March 2020 died in June 2020.  No refund yet issued, but IRS asked for a Form 1310 a few months ago.  Meanwhile the 2021 return, filed with a 1310 in March 2021, was refunded in October.

I think the SSN is locked fairly quickly after death.  

DTNY07
Level 7

Yes, a refund was expected.  I assume you mean 2020 return in what you wrote, since 2021 would be starting in a couple of weeks.  I understand the SS being locked after death.  If they asked for a 1310 now, that I would understand.  But, they haven't mailed anything to her apartment (and my sister has been getting the mail from there, so it's not like no one has access). Didn't file a 1310 at the time as she was still alive, though her death soon after wasn't unexpected.  Not that it matters from when the return was filed, but the bank account I had for the direct deposit, was a joint account with my sister.  My sister had been on it for the ten years after our dad had passed, so it wasn't a recent thing

DTNY07
Level 7

LOL.  I have said or thought that many times 

johnea
Level 3

same here a wife wants to file her hubby dies last year, het tax papers went with him it seemed tried to get transcripts impossible  since the irs lady want his poa along with hers to send it, yes you read it correctly the dead husbands poa. she would not budge, i sent her the widows court appointment and death certificate. she didnt care. i soke to her supervisor who told her to send the transcripts she never did, i filed a formal complaint with thr agency was told they would get fired before her a minority woman and civil servent. so i told the family not to try anymore and wait for them to notify her of non filing and ill file to go to fedeal tax court, my $ 5000 fee waived. i just want her ass in front of a judge. this is what you face now , its us versus them. same with giants like intuit forcing you to comply with their rrules and ideas the license fee a rip off to be paid and renewed every time u want to use a prior yr you already paid for. ty using a cheap over the counter program , 4 to 5 times for the 19.95 it costs u. for 5 uses. 

dkh
Level 15

 @johnea     Ridiculous she would want a POA from a dead man.   Can't you call again, certainly you won't get the same IRS agent. 

BobKamman
Level 15

Elevate it to Taxpayer Advocate.  Helps if you have the names and dates of previous contacts.  

johnea
Level 3

t a usually only handle minority issues , ive faced to faced them numerous times

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sjrcpa
Level 15

As Personal Representative she can file a POA for the decedent/decedent's estate.

I think this is mentioned in the 2848 instructions.

The more I know, the more I don't know.
johnea
Level 3

no kidding  try telling her that she was just interested in getting me off the phone no interest in doing her job, why? they got paid anyway!

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BobKamman
Level 15

Sometimes a friendly attitude helps

DTNY07
Level 7

That sounds ridiculous.  The spouse is alive in this case, shouldn't be such an issue

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johnea
Level 3

good  luck with that

 

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johnea
Level 3

good luck with that

 

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johnea
Level 3

probably one worse

 

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johnea
Level 3

good luck with that  after 3 days on phone on hold

 

 

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DTNY07
Level 7

I just called now.  Third party designee is not enough when a taxpayer has passed away.  Have to file a Form 56 Notice Concerning Fiduciary Relationship.  And attach things like proof of Death, the General POA I have, etc.   I knew this wouldn't be a simple one phone call thing. 

This was told to me by the Tax practitioner priority area.  I had first tried calling the general 800-829-1040 area to check on the automated refund status there and it says no information available and couldn't be transferred to an operator.

 

 

johnea
Level 3

anything not to give up dead peoples $$$ are they really ghouls? 

DTNY07
Level 7

Yeah, it's not like my sister or I need this money ASAP. (just the two of us as far as the estate)  But, what you are saying is true.  That and I have enough reminders about my mom's passing without having to deal with stuff like this.  I mean she was 84 with bad dementia, so her passing wasn't unexpected and she went relatively painlessly (and I am grateful for that).  But between  non tax agencies asking for proof of things  where there is no money involved and this, it's annoying/ a constant reminder

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BobKamman
Level 15

Your first mistake was to assume that an IRS employee knows how to handle this. It’s probably the first time they have come across the situation. Your job is to tell them what to do, and you can find that out by researching the online Internal Revenue Manual that they are supposed to be following. It’s really not that difficult, I just used “Form 56" for a search since you got that far, but “decedent disclosure” probably would have worked also.

So this is what you would have found:

11.3.2.4.11 (09-17-2020)
Deceased Individuals
The administrator, executor, or trustee of an estate may receive the returns and return information of the deceased individual. Often, an estate is already settled at the time a request for returns and return information is made, and thus an administrator, executor or trustee of the estate will no longer exist. In these circumstances, a person seeking disclosure will often need to consult state law to determine how appointment of an administrator, executor or trustee of the estate may be accomplished.
Any heir at law, next of kin, beneficiary under the will, or a donee (recipient) of property may receive the returns and return information of a deceased individual. Such person must have a material interest that will be affected by the requested information. A material interest is an important interest and is generally, but not always, financial in nature.
The requester must furnish satisfactory evidence that he/she is an administrator, executor, trustee, heir at law, next of kin, beneficiary under the decedent's will, or a donee (recipient) of property. Acceptable documentation includes but is not limited to: birth and/or death certificates, letters testamentary, a will, or other court document.
Note: For deceased taxpayers, the person whose name is shown on the second name line on the IDRS Entity screen can be given information if they have furnished satisfactory evidence they are an administrator, executor, trustee, etc. The Form 56, Notice Concerning Fiduciary Relationship, may also be considered when reviewing for satisfactory evidence. See IRM 11.3.2.4.8.
If the requester is an heir at law, next of kin, beneficiary, or donee, he/she must show a material interest which will be affected by the requested information. In some states, however, simply establishing a material interest may not be adequate.
Note: IRS Employees should check with local Area Counsel to determine implications of state law as it pertains to material interest.

11.3.2.4.8 leads you to 3.13.2.19.1, which has this useful information:

When a paper Form 56 or correspondence is received, the following information is needed to process the form:
Taxpayer name line information (Part I - Identification),
Employer Identification Number/Social Security Number (Part I - Identification) (if missing, research IDRS),
Fiduciary name and address information, (Part I - Identification),
Authority, (Part I Section A) One box in Item 1 must be checked, Item 2 must be completed if applicable,
Tax forms to be filed, (Part I Section B),
Court and Administrative Proceedings, if any took place (Part III), and
Signature of the fiduciary (Part IV).
Exception: There are situations where letters testamentary and/or court certifications may not be required. When a decedent has passed without a will and there has been a transfer of their estate to a surviving spouse or other heir under the property or estate and trust laws of the decedent’s state of domicile, courts may not be involved. In such instances, the Service may accept a signed Form 56 without additional supporting evidence.

DTNY07
Level 7

Thanks for all this info.  Honestly in this case, I think the iRS agent knew what they were doing.  It was more that she wasn't acting professional to me.  I did print out the Form 56 and the instructions before your response.  I've never filed one before.  It's not like I haven't had any clients pass away in the 20 years I have been doing this. Just never had to file one I guess

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