Form 8879-no ERO Signature

[ugh]

I do not see the ERO signature on the form 8879. The print preparer name on form is checked. How do I get the signature of the ERO on the form 8879?

Thank you

[Just-Lisa-Now-]

I use a pen.

[TaxGuyBill · Accepted solution]

Are you using the "Practitioner PIN" method (see bottom of the 8879)?

If so, read the paragraph in that section of the 8879.  You'll see it is signed.   🙂

[kre]

Can you explain in more detail? Not having to sign with a facsimile or printed name would be great, but I just do not see it. Seems to me Part III requires a signature to certify the PIN, it can't be signed with only a PIN. I find this to be a problem in Proseries, same as the OP.

Assuming use of the Practitioner PIN method, Part III requires the signature of the ERO, where he/she is certifying the ERO EFIN/PIN used to electronically sign the return. I don't think the EFIN/PIN by itself is a valid signature of the ERO on Form 8879 if that is what you are saying? The EFIN/PIN is the electronic signature for filing, but the 8879 has to be manually signed, or signed using one of the alternative procedures in Notice 2007-79, to certify the EFIN/PIN used in the efiled transmission. 

Publication 1345 says the ERO "must also" sign with a PIN, just like the client, but this is referring to the signature of the electronic return originator attesting to the ERO Declaration, and if applicable signing as return preparer. This is not the same as the certification of the EFIN/PIN itself, which is accomplished by signing the 8879.

In other words, the ERO must sign the return electronically with a PIN. But the 8879 still has to be manually signed, or signed using one of the alternative methods (either a facsimile of ERO signature or printed name) to certify that the PIN used to sign the return is valid.

I cannot seem to get the ERO signature to print in Part III, which I see as a serious issue. 

[itonewbie]

@kre  On the F.8879, your name should be printed on the preparer signature line by default, just like on the tax return.  Your printed name, just like on any paper-filed tax return, is recognized as your electronic signature according to published IRS guidelines and is, therefore, compliant with the regulations.

[kre]

I agree - that's what this thread is all about - how do you get Proseries to print ERO name on the 8879???? Setting Options to print name on return works on the 1040, but has no effect on 8879, and there is no input to type directly on the form 8879.

[cindy40362]

Pro Series Professional 

Reading the thread on the ERO name.  I can't figure out how to get the ERO name to print on Part III of the 8879.  We are going to be using e-signature to send the returns to client and didn't want to have to print and sign the forms.

Thank you for any information you can provide.

[kre]

I do not believe it can be done in Proseries, and despite what one poster says in an old reply above, I believe it is a problem. It really screws up use of the electronic signatures.

I am open to any explanations of why it is not a problem, but I'm still waiting for any explanation to the contrary. That post above does not explain anything.  The ERO has to sign the 8879 in order to certify the PIN which is used to sign the return. An 8879 with just the EFIN/PIN entered, but not signed, does not meet the requirements. It would be nice if Proseries allowed the signature to be printed on the form before creating the PDF for the DocuSign envelope.

Forcing the ERO to print the 8879 and manually sign it, especially when it is being signed electronically by client makes no sense. I just don't see any way around it in Proseries.

[cindy40362]

Here is the response I received from the Pro Series e-signature desk

This is a common question and the short answer is that the ERO requirement is automatically fulfilled when you use our e-signature to send and receive 8879’s. Since you are sending the request directly from your software which has your EFIN attached to it, our system assumes you are signing the ERO and prepares it as such. We took every step to make sure we’re IRS compliant while making it as convenient as possible to you and your client. The IRS does a much better (although wordier) job of explaining it than I can. Feel free to reference this article for further clarification.

https://www.irs.gov/irb/2007-42_IRB#NOT-2007-79

We are going to use the Pro Series e-signature add on this year so we appear to be in compliant.

[kre]

I don't see where Notice 2007-79 supports their position at all.

The Notice provides alternative methods for an ERO to sign 8879, instead of using a wet signature. It lists rubber stamp, mechanical device (such as signature pen), or computer software as the allowable alternatives. That's it! Then it goes on to state that EACH of these alternatives MUST include either a facsimile of the ERO's signature, or the ERO's printed name. Proseries does not meet this requirement, period. This requirement makes it clear (at least to me) that the ERO's signature line cannot be left blank, while Proseries' response seems far-fetched. I want to be wrong, but still waiting for a reasonable explanation. 

Without a name on the ERO signature line, the ERO is not certifying that the EFIN/PIN used to sign the tax return is valid. Entering just the EFIN/PIN obviously cannot serve as a certification of itself. 

[kdaglobal]

Agree with kre 100%--every other software allows for printing the preparer's name in lieu of signature on the 8879.  Proseries even does so on certain state e-file forms but not others.  It's very frustrating and a waste of time for practitioners.

[Rick5]

As per pub 1345 the ERO's signature or printed name is required on form 8879.  This with the fact that the software will print the ERO's name in both Lacerte and Drake makes me even more concerned.  It appears that Proseries  should give the ERO the option to print their name on the 8879 as well as the individual states signature forms.

[TracisTax]

I see that other tax preparers with varies tax programs are able to have ERO signatures on the 8879:s.  This needs to be added in proseries basic and professional for sure.  Printing, signing, then scanning in back in is a huge extra step for us!

[taxmanbing04]

Yep, this is a major, major problem that Intuit needs to resolve immediately.  They are charging a significant amount of money for the e-signature capability that is great in Lacerte because it has the ERO signature functionality, but ProSeries doesn't, and to not be able to have the ERO signature either printed, or e-signed, the whole process might as well be an incomplete product.

I'm honestly quite dismayed that an organization as large as Intuit can sell this service and yet have such a huge deficiency in it.  It should be a very, very easy developer fix to allow the ability to print the ERO signature on the 8879 prior to sending out for signature.

[timmurray]

I'm using ProSeries Basic, btw.

What was concluded with Form 8879 not having ERO Signature as part of the DocuSign process?

Through a secure web portal, I'm providing my clients their completed DocuSign package (compiled by Intuit) with Form 8879 unsigned.

What gives?

Tim

[IntuitGabi]

We're reviewing this. I'll keep you updated as I get more information. 

[kre]

Technically, you don't have a valid signature on the return the way Proseries does it. I work around either by adding an image of my signature to PDF before uploading to DocuSign, or add myself as a signer in the DocuSign process

[timmurray]

Thanks, Kre.

We technically may not need the ERO Signature on Form 8879, but I'd like my clients to see a completed document.  It looks incomplete without it.

I don't believe an "image of my signature" added to a PDF is a legal signature with or without DocuSign.

Where do you turn on "ERO Signature " in the Intuit DocuSign Process?

Thanks,

Tim

[kre]

Tim, I laid out the requirements for a valid signature in an earlier post above. Leaving the line blank is not acceptable, a facsimile of a signature is valid, even just the typed name is valid. Can't be very hard for them to fix as just about everyone else has done. 

[kre]

You just add yourself as a signer of the document in DocuSign and sign in the ERO space.

[timmurray]

Sorry, but where do you do this?  On the Intuit "Request eSignature" page, I only see Taxpayer section, Spouse section, and then Email message.  Where is the setting to add the ERO signature?

[kre]

I don't use Proseries integration with DocuSign, I use SmartVault. When the document opens in DocuSign, you "Edit Recipients" and there you can add or delete recipients, turn on KBA etc. I just add myself as a signer, and drag the sign here sticker for me to the ERO line on the 8879. After sending the document, it comes back to me to sign. I would think you could still do this with Proseries integration, but its been a few years since I used it and don't recall. It is done while in DocuSign prior to sending. 

[timmurray]

Yea, that's what I thought.  I know how to add signatures in DocuSign apart from ProSeries.  That's multiple extra steps. 

I'd like the ERO signature to be part of the ProSeries process and I don't understand why it isn't.

Thanks,

Tim

[kre]

Yes, it is extra work and frustrating, and most likely nothing would come of it if just left alone. But, then think about the ramifications of an invalid signature on a return. We have been stuck with having to do a workaround for years now, for what would seem a very simple modification to the program.

[timmurray]

I feel like we are missing something very basic here.  Aren't 90%+ of ProSeries customers in the same boat? 

Doesn't everyone want to electronically sign their ERO statement and have that signature show up on the form? 

Preparers are either leaving it unsigned, jumping through hoops to print, wet sign, scan, and electronically save, or they are using a separate DocuSign process outside of ProSeries.

I feel like we're missing a setting or some other very easy fix.

Thanks,

Tim

[taxmanbing04]

timmurray -- I've personally spent over an hour on the phone with an Intuit tech and they could not find a solution.

I then separately had a Zoom call with the Intuit eSignature team (both a staff and a manager on that call).  The feature to print the name on the 8879 exists in Lacerte, but it does NOT exist in ProSeries.  Honestly it blows my mind that Intuit--a $2 billion dollar corporation--can sell us this eSignature package/product and then fail to deliver this very basic feature.

They need to fix it, and they need to fix it VERY fast.  

[timmurray]

FYI, this is at least the 2nd year that I've been bothered by it.

I guess "fast" is a relative term. 

When you say "fast" do you mean within the next five years? 🙂

Tim

[ERIC J]

Enjoying the thread, hate the non-solution!  Is there any way we can make written appeals, comments and suggestions to ProSeries to add features?  THIS IS #1 IN MY BOOK.  IT'S MY THIRD YEAR SUCKINGIT UP AND MANUALLY PRINTING 8879s SIGNING AT BOTTOM THEN SCANNING BACK TO BE IRS COMPLIANT.  RIDICULOUS? OR, do we all just accept by now that Proseries is DOOMED any day now and we will all be pitched Lacerte instead?  

[timmurray]

Hi Eric, yea, I just don't understand how something so basic is not offered.  That's why I feel like we are missing something easy. 

ProSeries is monitoring these comments and has been silent.

Maybe it is what it is. 

Not good.

[IntuitGabi]

Check the box for Print Preparer Name (Found in Tools > Options > Firm/Preparer Info) as a workaround for skipping a manual signing or using a digital signature tool.
Please add this to the ProSeries Idea Exchange and post the link to the idea in this thread for others to find.
Thank you for your comments, I've passed this feedback along. 

[timmurray]

Thanks for your reply Gabi.

I've taken that step years ago, but that change only prints the preparer's name in the signature block at the bottom of Form 1040.  It does not write the name on the ERO Signature Line on Form 8879.

And even if it did, that is not a legal signature.

Sorry, but unless I'm missing something, this is not a solution, nor is it a workaround.

Thanks,

Tim

[kre]

As Tim has said already, Gabi's solution does not work (unless they just made a change to it). How old is this thread, at least two years and absolutely nothing from Intuit that addresses the issue accurately.

Note that if Gabi's solution actually printed the ERO's name on the 8879 (and any applicable state form also), that would be an acceptable solution. If the software could print the ERO's name on the 8879 that would clearly meet the requirements of Notice 2017-79 and we would put an end to this thread.

[rcooley25]

I do not know what Intuit system some of my fellow preparers are using who have responded to this post but there is a line right at the bottom of form 8879 where the ero manually signs his or her name.

[IntuitGabi]

Is the box for Print Preparer Name selected and it is not populating on the 8879? 

[taxmanbing04]

Correct -- It does NOT populate the 8879.  That's the whole problem.  That's the functionality we're asking for.  It populates the 1040, paid preparer section, but it does NOT populate the 8879.

[taxmanbing04]

rcooley25  I think you're missing the point.  We are using e-signature as provided (and sold at a high price) by Intuit.  Yes it's true we could print the form and manually sign it.  But we are using e-signature for a reason.  What you're suggesting has already been discussed and lamented in this thread.  We don't want to send out the 8879 for our clients to e-sign, only to have to print it out after they sign, manually sign and date it ourselves, and then scan it back into our digital files.  What a waste of time and paper.  We want the functionality to either (a) just have the ERO name automatically printed on the 8879 (which is allowed by the IRS), or (b) have the e-signature process routed to the ERO as well so the ERO can be part of the e-sign process.  

So, what you're suggesting as the solution, is not a solution at all, and is in fact the whole problem.

[timmurray]

I'm going to guess that this is a ProSeries Basic issue which is why nobody cares.

Am I right?

Tim

[kre]

NO, Proseries Professional

[IntuitGabi]

Thank you for the clarification! Currently the program is not designed to populate a signature on 8879. 
We're reviewing this and if there are updates I'll respond back to this thread. 

[kre]

Thanks Gabi,

Please make sure the explanation they give us references the Notice 2007-79 requirement that EACH of the signing alternatives MUST include either a facsimile of the ERO's signature, or the ERO's printed name on the 8879. See my post from February 2021 above.

[StevenSEA]

I echo the request to bring us into the 20th century!  Wait, what's that you say, that ended over 20 years ago?  Hmmm...

*Surely* Intuit wants to sell us the eSIgnature add-on.  

Intuit: Update your software!

[goose406]

What is the status of this issue in Intuit's camp?  I just sent my first esignature with a blank in my signature spot - it looks like an error on my part but it does not give me an option.

[gbayus]

WHY is this issue so **bleep** hard for Intuit to do?  The other software products you produce do it.....This is supposed to be "Professional."  Every year, the samd **bleep** problem....Intuit DOES NOT LISTEN and DOES NOT CARE!

[rm1993]

I just spoke to three different representatives at ProSeries about the signature not being printed. It is my understanding that the ERO's EFIN/PIN on the 8879 is the ERO signature. 

According to the IRS:

https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/self-select-pin-method-for-forms-1040-and-4868-modernized-e-fil...

"What is an ERO PIN?

The ERO PIN is the ERO's electronic signature. For consistency, each ERO is encouraged to use the same 11 numbers for their ERO PIN on all returns for this filing season. The first 6 positions of your ERO PIN must be your EFIN and it must match the EFIN in the Submission ID. You may select any 5 digits except all zeros for the next five positions. It does not take place of the taxpayer's PIN. A taxpayer PIN is also required."

[taxmanbing04]

I'm sorry to say, but I think that's simply incorrect.  And I think all three Intuit representatives are wrong too.

First off -- Intuit is inconsistent, because in their higher-tier software, Lacerte, they allow the printed preparer or ERO name on the 8879, even though the ERO PIN is already present.  So if what those reps said is true, then why do they allow it in Lacerte?

Second -- it is the signature for the e-file transmission itself, not the 8879.  Think about it.  Taxpayers have to sign the 8879, even through the taxpayer PINs are right there on the 8879.  Do their pins act as their signature?  No.  Basically they are saying "this PIN will be used in the software as my signature for transmission purposes, and I'm signing off on that fact."  EROs have to basically do the same thing.

The Intuit reps are wrong. As has been pointed out in this thread, it does not meet the IRS qualifications.  They simply don't address the issue.

And just for argument's sake -- Even if they were right, they allow the option in Lacerte, so why can't they just allow the same option in ProSeries.

The way Intuit has handled this matter has been embarrassing.

[kre]

taxbigman is correct, Proseries is just completely lost on this issue after years of having the correct info laid out for them right here in this thread. The PIN is not a valid signature on the Form 8879, it is what is being validated BY THE signature that is required on the 8879. Read 2007-79 discussed to death above, it is not confusing and clearly states that a signature in one of the specified formats is required on every 8879. The PIN is not one of the allowed formats. Handwritten, typed, stamped, computer generated etc. are all acceptable, but blank is not.

[rm1993]

That is what my concern was when calling in today. But it does sound like there is no direction on their side.

[rm1993]

When I asked proseries today they said Lacerte is a higher cost program and it has features that other products do not have. I asked why if paying extra for the docusign does not give us the same docusign features. I agree with everything you are saying and just wanted to relay the information they gave to us as of today. That being said is everyone just printing and signing as you cannot edit the pdf as it is protected?

[taxmanbing04]

Actually, my firm left Intuit.  We have a new software provider.  This issue wasn't the only thing, but it was certainly one of the big issues.  We aren't on Lacerte either.  We went to a new company.  And as you can expect, yes this new software prints the firm name or preparer name (our choice) on the signature line of the 8879.

We were extremely disappointed with Intuit and the way they handled things like this.

Honestly it still blows my mind how Intuit just doesn't understand this.

[kre]

Proseries DocuSign integration technically results in an improperly signed return because the ERO has not certified his pin in accordance with N2007-79. I don't use it for this reason, but maybe you could include your ERO in the DocuSign signers' listing so it comes back to you to electronically sign. I use another platform for the DocuSign matters, and just place a digital signature on the PDF prior to sending for signatures. Gets it done, but a waste of minutes that do add up.