MarinaEA
Level 4

You said: "And that is why you would amend. You seem to think the earnings can be left in the Roth, and left to grow as Roth, which would be tax free, but that's not how this works. Since the basis resulting in the earnings is disallowed, there is no tax free income for those. It's called Net Income Attributable (NIA). If you don't remove it, you report it and pay taxes on it. Every year, until it is removed. Don't confuse Traditional IRA earnings on a disallowed contribution, and a Roth with earnings on disallowed contribution. We are reviewing Roth, right?"

No, I have it all figured how to report and how to treat it, and I have all that backed by actual IRS instructions and confirmed by the brokerage. 2021 and 2022 contributions are reported and treated differently and separately. You are confusing two contributions that must be reported and treated differently. 2022 will be a timely correction, 2021 will not be a timely correction. I don't seem to think that the earnings can be left in the Roth if the correction is UNTIMELY which would be the case for 2021 contribution. The guidance literally states so. This is not an opinion. 

When I said "we were wrong about the earnings for 2021". I meant YOU and I were wrong assuming that earnings for 2021 must be distributed. That is incorrect. I thought that too originally, and I was wrong and you are too. And I literary posted two sources - from the tax adviser and from Fidelity with the example which literally sates so. From the tax adviser:

"Example 5: A single, 54-year-old taxpayer is not eligible to contribute to a Roth IRA in 2019 because his modified adjusted gross income exceeds the phaseout limit for those contributions. Nevertheless, the taxpayer mistakenly makes a $7,000 excess contribution in 2019 to a newly formed Roth IRA. The entire excess contribution constitutes after-tax investment in the Roth IRA.

In 2020, after the expiration of the time for making a corrective distribution, the Roth IRA's balance has grown to $7,700. The taxpayer then makes an ordinary distribution of $7,000 that is composed entirely of nontaxable investment and that eliminates the $7,000 excess contribution. The $700 of earnings is retained by the Roth IRA and is allowed to compound tax-free in future years. Unfortunately, the taxpayer must still pay excise tax of $420 for 2019 (6% of the $7,000 excess contribution)."

https://www.thetaxadviser.com/issues/2020/apr/correcting-excess-contributions-iras.html

Did you ignore what was posted above? It literally states "The $700 of earnings is retained by the Roth IRA and is allowed to compound tax-free in future years."  This is 100% clear.

I literally posted two sources for you explaining how 2021 earnings do not need to be withdrawn and can grow tax free. If you want to withdraw them, you can, but then you will pay 10% on those earnings if you do as it simply will be treated as early distribution if you are under 59.

The article clarifies and confirms this again by stating: “If it is too late to make a corrective distribution, a taxpayer may be able to eliminate an excess contribution simply by making ordinary distributions. For a Roth IRA, the excess contribution is reduced by the entire amount of the distribution. In neither case is there a need to distribute the IRA income earned on the excess contribution.” 

Again, this literally states: "In neither case is there a need to distribute the IRA income earned on the excess contribution.” This would be applicable to the 2021 contribution.

And Fidelity literally explains this too. It says in the Fidelity article that "earnings calculation is not required for untimely correction". The 2021 would be untimely correction. Per Fidelity: "With untimely corrections, the IRS does not require an earnings calculation―you simply withdraw the amount of the excess contribution. Untimely corrections must be reported as an early or normal withdrawal, depending on your age when you withdraw, using IRS Form 1099-R"

For timely correction, you must calculate and withdraw and report the earnings as well ( that would be applicable to 2022 contribution, not to 2021 contribution). Per Fidelity: "If you are removing an excess contribution using the timely correction method, you are required to remove your original contribution plus earnings. The earnings must be included on your tax return in the year you made the excess contribution." Again, that is applicable to timely corrections, NOT to untimely corrections. 

https://www.fidelity.com/retirement-ira/excess-ira-contributions

No, no need to amend 2021. And no, there is no concept of "earnings" if the removal isn't timely which would be the 2021 contribution. The earnings only must be withdrawn and are taxable if the removal is timely ( 2022 contribution would be). 2021 earnings can either stay in the account and grow tax free as the article explains above, or she can withdraw them and pay 10% tax on those earnings since she is under 59. And that was confirmed by her brokerage as well.

Also, the 5329 instructions explain that there is NO need to amend if you are only filing 5329. It can be filed as stand alone. 

You said: "If you catch your mistake before the tax filing deadline for the year, your best option is to remove the excess before you file your taxes. But hold on, it's not as simple as it sounds. You have to remove your excess contribution and any earnings attributable to that excess contribution."

Yup, that is FOR the 2022 contributions and that is HOW the 2022 contribution is treated. NOT the 2021 contribution which would be AFTER the tax filing deadline. You are confusing two contributions that must be treated and reported differently because  2022 is a timely correction and 2021 is NOT a timely correction. Not a timely correction ( 2021 in this case) is reported and treated as an early or normal withdrawal in the year the withdrawal occurs. There is no concept of "earnings" for untimely corrections. With the untimely correction, the earnings can stay in the account and grow tax free, or you can withdraw it, and it will be treated as an early or normal withdrawal. 

You said: "Withdrawal of excess contributions. For purposes of determining excess contributions, any contribution that is withdrawn on or before the due date (including extensions) for filing your tax return for the year is treated as an amount not contributed. This treatment only applies if any earnings on the contributions are also withdrawn. The earnings are considered earned and received in the year the excess contribution was made."

Yup. Again, this is applicable to timely corrections ( "any contribution that is withdrawn on or before the due date"- that is literally stated in your own reply and the link you provided) which would be applicable to the 2022 contribution. NOT applicable to untimely corrections which would be the 2021 contribution. 

If you actually read the instructions for 5329 and for 8606 forms, it has all the answers. I have all the correct information and how to report it. I will post it in a separate reply for others to see and understand in case someone else faces this issue. 

0 Cheers